8.09.2005

Yeah But

OK, I can now allow that perhaps Krueger did not have malice in his intent (and I'm using my lunch hour to admit this). There was a nice column in the Contra Costa Times by Neil Hayes espousing what the commenter bacci40 was saying, that you have to take Krueger's comment in context.

What bacci did not note, which would have been pertinent and which Hayes did note, was that Krueger was actually trying to praise Alou in his rant but then said that his mind was "Cream of Wheat". A faux pas that appears to be, a "backhanded compliment" as Hayes put it, but it was a compliment on Alou's past, as Krueger saw it, and a dig on Alou's present, as Krueger now see it. Hayes also noted that he is a frequent guest on the show, so that means that he is not totally an objective bystander either, like any of Krueger's co-workers who have been essentially defending him but acknowledging the stupidity of the comment.

I was also listening to KNBR on the way to work this morning and Gary Radnich had a number of caller call in to contribute what they have heard. One noted that this was not Krueger's first insensitive comment, perhaps also racial in nature. One night there was a discussion of Chinese gymnasts (don't remember the sport exactly, I think it was gymnastics, but am certain it was some type of athletics) and he went on a rant about their looks and about how ugly they were. The caller noted that there were a lot of calls of protests to the station about that. Another guy called in to say that this isn't 1965, why don't people lighten up.

Another called to say that Krueger once devoted a whole show to racism, as he chastised two Montreal announcers for their racist take on some players. Lastly, Reggie Jackson called in and talked about his humiliating experiences when he was in the minors on a Southern team and how he was helped by a number of white players on his team - Joe Rudi, Dave Duncan, Rollie Fingers - and by his manager, John McNamara. He also talked about how he felt like many people - it appears to be an unfortunate mistake - but then saw Felipe Alou's face in interviews regarding this issue and he felt compelled to call into the Giants and let them know that he supports Alou totally in this. He asked all listeners to look at Felipe's face when Felipe is discussing this issue to see the pain in it and then they will understand. I would be interested to hear what others have heard in the past from Krueger, but OK, perhaps Krueger didn't have malice in his comments.

However, that does not flush away the pain it has caused. The common theme I am getting from all the apologist is "Yeah it was inappropriate, but..." But but but. BUT BUT BUT. BUT BUT BUT!!!

It isn't 1941 either BUT the genocide humanity witnessed as the Germans rounded up the Jewish for mass extermination was repeated about 50 years later in Bosnia and in Africa. There are now even people who claim that the German genocide of the Jewish never happened. It is not 1965 but there was that poor black man dragged to death behind a car not that long ago and we will recall Rodney King's horrific beating. And in a local shopping mall, because I had the effrontery to be shopping in a store with my wife but happen to be standing in her way, this woman told me, "why don't you go back to where you came from?" Maybe if the caller had a relative or friend killed in a massively horrible way or been treated abominably when you were not doing anything remotely wrong, then he will understand why people don't "lighten up."

This is not to say that we as a country haven't made massive strides forward in the past 40 years. However, there are still people who share these racist feelings, only they know now that it is not PC to expose their feelings out in public, so they keep their feelings deep, like cockroaches of their minds, coming out in the shadows of their actions. As the oft-quoted phrase noted, "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it." And even mildly innocent comments like this, whether intended or not, pandered to people who share these feelings, and, more importantly, hurt good people's feelings.

I would liken this to an accidental shooting death between friends or relatives, perhaps even brothers. There may have been no malice involved. It may have been in the heat of the moment. It was an unfortunate mistake. And yet the results are very real and very hurtful.

Some will say this analogy is overboard, that you cannot compare a death with words. This is not kindergarten where sticks and stones can break your bones but words can never hurt you. If you haven't been the innocent victim of racism, sexism, ageism, any -ism there is, accused or hated for no other reason than something you were born with, then you really don't know how it feels when you are treated this way. Vigilence in combatting such insensitivity, inadverdent or not, unfortunate or with malice, is the key to stamping this out of our culture, out of our society, which I believe is the greatest in the history of the world.

That's partly why I feel so strongly about this. I cannot imagine living anywhere else in the world, this time, this place. I feel privileged and thankful that my ancestors decided to take the huge risk to come to America, and not without loss, as we lost relatives in coming over, though luckily not as many as others. And, honestly, I never felt like anything but an American while growing up until reality stepped in and some kids decided to make my heritage a big thing. I was blissfully ignorant of such issues until I was double digit in age, which was lucky for me, others learn about reality at a much younger age.

America should be better than this, the ideals of our founding fathers espoused in their documents should be the goal, and people who say insensitive comments like this should be dragged across hot coals. I felt the sting when I looked at my mother's face while she told me about the racist things that happened to her and will never forget it. And so I try to my best to make sure no one else has to talk with their mom or dad and see the pain caused them by "insensitive" and "unfortunate" comments.

Lastly, haven't noted this yet but I agree with the sentiment that he should not be fired from his job for this. But really, all he got in punishment for his statement is a week's vacation essentially; basically a slap on the hand, as Felipe put it. And that is an insult to the pain that he has caused with his statements. And a sign that KNBR and Krueger don't really get it, don't understand the magnitude of it; perhaps, even worse, don't care. And because of this lack of understanding and lack of quick action, the issue is growing to the point where there may be no other alternative.

19 Comments:

Blogger obsessivegiantscompulsive said...

I also want to note - since it doesn't pertain to the topic I didn't put it in the post - how hilarious I found the last sentence of Hayes column to be. "...Alou and the Giants could end up being guilty of what sports celebrities often accuse the media of -- taking quotes out of context and blowing them out of proportion."

Such indignation! Where was he when Bonds was being taken out of context, over and over again (as I've written on before on sfdugout.com)? Easy for him to defend one of his media buddies when he is taken out of context but when the truth of the context of Bonds statements was lacking in almost all media accounts, where was he to chastise his fellow reporters for their lack of context?

I would think that the integrity of his profession would warrant greater indignation on his part because the actions of his brethren brings the standing of his profession down, makes reporters look petty and lacking of care for their craft when they attack Bonds while it is they who are taking things out of context. Unfortunately, when reporters do this, people take them at their word because they are "reporting" this so it must be "true", but when athletes do it, people just roll their eyes.

I would love to see one reporter do such a column but I probably won't get to see one because his or her pals would probably ostracize him/her from the reporter club and don't let them play reporter games.

Tue Aug 09, 02:03:00 PM PDT  
Anonymous bacci40 said...

yes, sorry...i forgot to mention that the cream of wheat comment was not aimed at alous age but at his state of mind, trying to right a ship with inadequate tools

as an avid listener to krugs show, he consistently backs alou to callers

this should never have gotten national attention...but i do understand that alou is under alot of pressure this year....mostly brought on by things not in his control

Tue Aug 09, 11:12:00 PM PDT  
Anonymous bacci40 said...

but let me add this...words do not kill

and again, i urge all readers of this blog...and the blog master to please rent the tapes, dvd, cds....whatever of the great lenny bruce

krug is not alvin dark (the bastard racist)....krug is not campanis (the drunk)....krug is not the greek (another drunk)...he is an avid giants fan, who in one monologue lost his cool

Tue Aug 09, 11:16:00 PM PDT  
Anonymous bacci40 said...

krug was terminated tonite....feel better?

yup, that raving racist if off the air....now alou can manage in peace...and guide the giants to a 100 loss season, without a voice of dissention of the flagship station

knbr are pussies

and i am done listeming to them, and will be happy when alou and sabean are gone from the org

Tue Aug 09, 11:54:00 PM PDT  
Blogger obsessivegiantscompulsive said...

Bacci, did you not read a word of this post? Your reactions suggest you did not as I made clear that I was not advocating firing Krueger but rather was ridiculing the length of the suspension. Please don't bother commenting if you aren't bothering to read what I wrote.

Also, you did not read the whole termination notice on KNBR.com. It was not just the Alou incident that got him fired, apparently the Morning Show did a comedy bit to ridicule Alou commentary from ESPN. As a result, Bob Agnew, Tony Rhein, and Krueger were all fired for those transgressions. If that comedy bit didn't hit the air, perhaps "Krug" might be still hanging by his nails onto his job but apparently this comedy bit was the last straw and got the lot of them fired.

You are entitled to your opinion about KNBR, but please stop using vulgarities or I'll shut off the comment feature. I appreciate your comments and your pushing me to reconsider the context of the statement.

As for me, I will stick with the team through thick and thin, kind of like the team is a relative, you may not always like what they are doing, but you stand by them.

I am still satisfied with Alou and Sabean, but everytime I see one of the players traded for A.J. I cringe. I have advocated for the investor group to either step aside to a more deep-pocketed owner or bring in more investors so that they can compete with teams like the D-backs, which makes a mockery of spending into bankruptcy only to sell out to new owners who pump even more money into them so that they can pick up big salary players like Glaus, Ortiz, Vasquez, and Green.

GO GIANTS!!!

Wed Aug 10, 12:40:00 AM PDT  
Anonymous bacci40 said...

i did read your entire post

and i did read knbr statement (which was nonsensical)

krug was already suspended, what did he have to do with what the morning show aired?

you may not have been advocating krugs termination, but to compare his one word with anything done by racists in the past is ludicrous

alou stated he wasnt advocating krugs termination either, but he used words like "satans messenger" and "slap on the hand", and he refused to return to tbe knbr airwaves as long as krug was still on the air

it is apparent that neither you nor alou has ever heard krugs shows in toto

had you, you may have heard his rant in context with his feelings as a giants fan

well, never fear...krug is gone, and the pablum lineup on knbr will now be complete

maybe they can replay the barry show after games....theres some stimulating and insightful sportstalk

i for one am done with that station

as for ownership, krug reiterated a point on the same show....the team brings in upwards of 200 mil per year....even with the debt on the stadium....where does all the money go

and i am not satisfied with sabean...10 years of mismanagement and trades, has turned our farm system into a worthless piece of trash, where the best backup catcher we have is yamid haad, and the best er sp we have is brian cooper

he passed on trying to get vlad because "he has a bad back" and he has passed on trying to get star latins, because they are too expensive, yet he signs guys like fonzi to multi year expensive contracts, then cant figure why he cant deal them....the man has the most worthless 80 mil team in all the mlb, while across the bay, beane is working magic because of a better org philosophy

both sabean and alou need to go...and the team should be sold to owners who care

Wed Aug 10, 04:46:00 AM PDT  
Blogger obsessivegiantscompulsive said...

Sometimes in life you are stuck in an impossible situation through no real malice on your part, through an accidental slip of the tongue or poor decision making. Unfortunately for Krug, it had to be statement that was a derogotory racial statement which negates any and all of the nice statements he may have said previously about Alou (I saw the gist of the good parts in the Hayes article). You may think that racism doesn't hurt but it does, on many levels, and it affects many people, even today, even in America.

The firing does nothing for me, I would much prefer a world which understands why things like this hurt people, so that my children won't ever have to wonder about whether someone was acting racist or not, don't have to wonder if they are in the wrong place at the wrong time in regards to racism, don't have to wonder why someone is being mean when you were just minding your own business. But you can't always get what you want.

Either way, non-whites lose anyway. If Krug stays, the racists are propped up, encouraged that he showed "us", put us in our "place". If Krug is fired, the racists are outraged and feel the need to show "us", to put us in our "place".

By making a big deal of this derogotory statement, we shine a big light on this abhorent behaviour and hopefully push such thoughts down deeper so that people understand that you cannot act this way in American society, that this is not the American way.

About the Giants finances, Forbes publishes their estimate of what each MLB team brings in legitimately to the bottom line every year. According to them, the Giants had EBITDA of $6.9M on revenues of $159M. But they are paying around $10-15M in interest each year plus can take depreciation on the stadium, making their bottom line negative significantly once you take those into account. In total, they still have debt of about $160M that they are paying off around $20M in principal and interest each year. I also recall that the Giants have been paying sharply higher revenue sharing payments the past few years and yet been keeping their payroll budget about the same.

Actually, Sabean has revitalized the Giants farm system, it was lousy since the early 90's, once the Giants started winning under Rosen and especially after Quinn took over, from very poor draft choices, with none of the first round choices ever doing anything in the majors. It takes 4-6 years for prospects to start making the majors and contributing and if you give Sabean a break on his first two drafts, most probably compiled with the scouts who were responsible for the drought previously, he started delivering in 1999 with Ainsworth and Jerome Williams, and each year after that has had significant prospects who make the Top Prospects lists that Baseball America publishes annually. It is hard to find even useful (player who makes arbitration) prospects picking in the 20th-30th pick range, based on data from 1986-1998. Unfortunately, one of the most successful drafters appears to be across the Bay in Beane, but relative to the rest of MLB baseball, Sabean is definitely no worse than any other team, and depending on how his drafts from 1999-2004 works out, he could be ahead.

10 years of mismanagement? He took one of the worse teams of 1996 and put together a pennant winner in one year! He got Jeff Kent, Jason Schmidt, Feliz Rodriquez, Ellis Burks, JT Snow, Kirk Rueter, Robb Nen, Livan Hernandez in trades for essentially nothing but Matt Williams,in terms of after-Giants contributions. He has had the Giants competitive in every season but this one and had the third best win/loss record in the MLB since he became GM.

Is he perfect? No. Could he have done better? Yes. But on the whole he has been an excellent GM for his tenure, hardly worthy of being labeled "mismanagement". But that is your opinion and I respect that and kindly disagree.

That said, I think the next couple of years are the decision point with Sabean. This is when the cream of his draft crop comes up and when Bonds retires and the Giants don't have the benefit of not only the best offensive weapon in MLB history, but the only LH hitter who could do anything at SBC Park, and not only could do anything but do it with great slugging ability. If his current crop of prospects don't make it, it is probably time to move on.

Alou is probably gone within a year or two of Bonds and Moises retirement, though it sounds like his exit strategy is a position in our farm system.

Wed Aug 10, 11:22:00 AM PDT  
Anonymous bacci40 said...

a well managed org, does not experience a system wide collapse after only losing 2 players

it doesnt happen

the giants cook the books...thats why they have created 2 entities....the park and the team

and the krug issue would never have gone national had it not been for alou

im so sorry you are worried for the mind set of your children,,,but this is an ugly world

but krug is not one of those ugly people

where is your outrage at comments by people like ozzie guillen, shaq and dusty baker or other sports personalities of color who have made off color and racist remarks

there is a double standard in this country

fyi, wanna find out about racism, go to mexico, where light skinned hispanics have institutional racsim against dark skinned/indian hispanics

this was a non issue, until alou made it into one, to cover for his anger at what he saw was a slight at his intelligence and age (the cream of wheat comment) he knew getting angry at that wouldnt play, so he used the racial comment

and what does alou care, as you stated, hes gone in a year, hes made his millions, and 3 dumb white guys lost their jobs....no biggie

Wed Aug 10, 01:24:00 PM PDT  
Blogger obsessivegiantscompulsive said...

Where did the team just lose 2 players? Bonds, Alou, Durham, Alfonzo, Benitez, Grissom, Rueter, all have been on the DL. Plus poor performances from Herges and Brower in an area that was suppose to be a strength for the Giants. And Schmidt was lost for a month or two as well, performance-wise. And take away a top closer from any team and they normally suffer from just that one loss. No team has the depth to lose their best player, best starting pitcher, and closer and a number of other key players for an extended period of time and still do well.

All baseball teams cook the books, Forbes tries to analyze their finances taking away those funny accounting entries. You can believe what you want or accept that Forbes might have financial analysts who know what they are doing (he's been doing it since 1990). If it helps you to know, the MLB and Sir Bud Selig himself have denounced Forbes' numbers as lies and falsehoods and SABR's late Business of Baseball expert, Doug Pappas, thought enough of their numbers to include a link to that data.

Like I've written, I can see your point that perhaps Krug did not mean to say something like that but it's an unfair world, an ugly world as you put it, you can say the wrong thing and it can cost you your job.

Perhaps this is an analogy to help you see why there appears to be a double standard. There's a sheep and a lion (I stole this from a Woody Allen joke). When the lion makes a threatening statement (like a racist statement), the sheep is in fear. If the sheep makes a threatening statement, the lion isn't bothered by it. Not great, but that is the difference in level of threat between people of color noting racial differences and white people making racist statements.

Or maybe this is better. You are an American in a Middle East country that you know Al Queda lives there. You can make American jokes and it don't really matter, the natives and Al Quedans laugh with you, you're really funny. If the Middle Easterner makes American jokes, then you start sweating, knowing what some Al Quedans have done to Americans, want to do to Americans, only you don't know whether the speaker is a moderate Middle Easterner or an Al Quedan.

I don't need to find out about racism, I live in America, I've experienced it, as relatively mild as it has been, I've heard worse examples from others, and read even worse in the newspapers. Since you think the U.S. is so perfect now, here's a few stories I remember off the top of my head.

I can still remember reading as a young boy about a Chinese man, out for his bachelor's party when two disgruntled autoworkers start accosting him with complaints about the Japanese carmakers, which didn't matter to him because he's American and not even of Japanese heritage. But that wasn't enough, the two men leave, go to their car and get baseball bats, wait in the dark and, when the man left the bar, attacked him and brutally clubbed him to death. They were convicted and got a two year sentence after a protracted trial then had the sentence overturned. I can still remember them saying on-air, "we just want to go on with our lives." Yeah, so did the guy you killed but he doesn't have that choice anymore, does he?

More recently, there's the famous case about the African American who was dragged to death behind a car by two white southerners. Enough said about that. Or how about the Japanese exchange student who was lost in the South looking for a Halloween party, innocently knocked on a door to get directions and the owner opened the door and killed him with a shotgun blast? The owner didn't even get convicted, he got totally off. And there's the Rodney King police brutality captured on video for all to see.

So don't tell me to go to Mexico, why don't you open your eyes to what's happening here instead.

If you are saying I want to see worse cases of racism, well, I don't want to see any anywhere in the world. However, I am American so therefore I'm more concerned about my life here and want to start here.

See, there are probably hundreds and thousands of these "non-issue" comments until it becomes public. Like you said, it's an ugly world, sometimes ugly things happen to people that they don't deserve, like racism, like losing your job over a slip of the tongue.

I'm sorry he lost his job, and yet he said something that is blatantly racially derogotory and a week suspension is a slap of the hand for someone who has a public forum to speak from.

If he said one of the 'no-no' words of radio, I would think that the FCC would have a worse penalty than a week suspension. For example, in 2004, fines averaged $250K per violation of broadcast decency for the station. If a politician made a mistake like that, their career would be over, no matter how good a person they may have been in their life. For one slipped, unfortunate word.

Or for one unfortunate action. Gary Hart was the favorite for winning the Democratic nomination for the Presidency when he was caught with a young lady on his lap who wasn't his wife. He has been a non-entity politically since then, relative to where he was before.

About Alou and his money, Alou has already made millions and he would make his future millions even if these three men still had their jobs so I'm not sure what your point is.

What Alou cares about is what I care about, the world that our children will face while living in America. We need to denounce statements like this, even supposedly mistakenly said, to make sure that people who really do think this way don't feel the freedom to say what they really feel and, worse, organize with others who feel this way.

Lastly, regarding a prior statement about the lack of dissension at KNBR, that shows that you are a relatively new listener to KNBR and perhaps new Giants fan, you can't help but listen to KNBR's slate of talkshow hosts if you are a Giants fan listening to games on KNBR. Ralph Barbieri is infamous for his on-air tussles with Brian Sabean in their weekly interview show. In his many years there (I'm thinking over 20 years, maybe more than 25), and he is a loose cannon like Krueger, ready to explode at any moment, yet he has been able to go toe to toe with Sabean and other Giants officials and not utter any racist statement and yet say enough bad things about the Giants to get Sabean so mad that he wouldn't do the show for a while. And on more than one occassion. It's quite a hoot, you can hear it in Sabean's voice and you can hear it in Ralph's voice, all that tension. It's like watching an accident in slow motion.

So if you want a voice of dissent, go to Ralph, Tom speaks his mind as well, especially since he's from Socal with no youthful ties to the Giants like Ralph, and I've found Rod Brooks to be a nice objective voice as well, he's from Texas so he's definitely not a Giants fan. Gary Radnich is also objective but his show isn't just straight talk about the Giants, he's there to entertain you plus he likes to give fans a forum and he's not impressed with the sound of his voice on radio, so he doesn't talk about his feelings as much, and thus there's not as much about the Giants as there would be with Ralph. I listen to all these guys all the time, you should give them a try. Besides, there is no other sports show in the SF Bay Area, so you are kind of stuck if you want that type of talk.

Wed Aug 10, 05:23:00 PM PDT  
Anonymous bacci40 said...

ok, i do not wish to go in circles over this...but do you feel it was appropriate for alou to go on national television and call krug "a messenger of satan", was it appropriate for this alledged turn the cheek christian to state emphatically that he would never accept an apology from krueger.

and why is it that you seem to be missing the point.

has alou spent his offseasons, going on the lecture circuit talking about the evils of discrimination to childrens of all cultures?

why this time and this place?

could it be that alou never heard the krug show before?

could it be that he didnt even hear it that nite and someone from the giants org (who will never identify himself....errrrr....baer) showed alou the transcript, knowing the ruckus it would cause?

could it be that had alou heard the show in toto, including krugs comments praising his abilities "a brilliant tactician" that he mightve had a different bent on the whole issue.

there are forces behind the scenes here who wanted krug gone, for a myriad of reasons.

when are you gonna write a blog re your outrage at people like ozzie guillen, who once called mags "that venezuelan piece of shite" (and ya, i know ozzie is venezuellan...or who after commenting on the krug issue, introduced his friend to the press stating "hey guys, hes a homosexual....you know, a real child molester" of course in fun, but hurtful to many.
what about a blog on dustys comments of last year, in regards to darker skinned people playing better in the heat....

i know, i know...you gave me those great analogies...of course they dont pertain amymore do they...for who are the power brokers now....dusty wrote his own ticket to chitown, and was able to get steve stone terminated last year for slights to his person....guillen is a god in chitown now, and can do no wrong...and alou is afraid of some late nite talk show host? that is just too funny

yes, alou went thru hell to prove himself....yes he was angered by comments shown to him out of context....but the broohaha which insued rests squarely on the shoulders of the giants and alou.

did our children learn anything from this....did hispanics become empowered from his diatribes, or the termination of 3 men? did racism or prejudice disapear

where are the ghandis or the mlks of the world....oh thats right...we killed them

Wed Aug 10, 08:24:00 PM PDT  
Blogger obsessivegiantscompulsive said...

I agree that we are going in circles. I will post once more and probably will let this go unless something new is brought into the debate.

When you speak racist terms, I can see why a Christian might call you "a messenger of Satan." It does not matter whether a sportstalk host or an innocent child or any other person says those words, those words are racist in nature and whether Krueger intended it or not, he is now the messenger of those words.

As Alou put it, he didn't start this, Krueger did by talking about him. Why cannot you see that no one would benefit from talking about this day and night, as you seem to insist Alou should do as a prerequisite for taking a stand, but when you are attacked directly, as Alou was, he fought back?

I've posted on other sites about this but I don't think here, but I think the firings had really nothing to do with the racist statements, ultimately, but with the results of the statements, the national controversy. KNBR's owner is looking to sell the station and a controversy like this, especially with the team they are most identified with, would hurt its sale price. So instead of letting the controversy spiral out of control any further, KNBR's management decided to amputate and stem the bleeding. But no, again in a racist siutation, the victim Alou gets blamed, it is the victim's fault for being "thin-skinned", the victim's fault for not being the bigger man.

You just still don't seem to get it and I thought that last analogy was good. OK to be more blunt, commenting on your own kind is universally accepted, whether black on black, white on white, yellow on yellow, red on red, green on green. It's the traditional "I will fight and beat my brother up but don't you dare fight and beat my brother up, he's blood" storyline. Hope that finally gets you to understand.

Alou is not afraid of a late lite talk show host, he is afraid of the attitude, whether intentionally or not, espoused by that host when he spoke about the carribean hitters in that way. You would too if such attitudes put your life at risk, put the lives of your family and friends at risk. Again, you are blaming the victim.

No, nothing was learned really, other than don't get your management mad at you for bringing controversy to the company when they are trying to sell it. The firings were not done because of the racist statements, it was done because the controversy was escalating out of control and the KNBR management did damage control. But again, the victim is blamed.

Very nice of you to bring up Ghandi and Martin Luthor King Jr. up but why? They used non-violent methods to bring about change. Did you see Alou use violence? All Alou used were words too and to a national audience, like Ghandi and MLKJr. Perhaps his choice of words on ESPN was "unfortunate" but you are forgiving of Krueger for his "unfortunate" choice but not Alou? Plus Alou plainly said that he didn't want Krueger fired. Lastly, if MLK Jr. was attacked in such a racist way, do you really think that he would have done anything differently?

Thu Aug 11, 09:59:00 AM PDT  
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Thu Aug 11, 10:47:00 AM PDT  
Anonymous bacci40 said...

i will end this argument by stating this....bernie ward agrees with me....i win

Thu Aug 11, 12:50:00 PM PDT  
Blogger obsessivegiantscompulsive said...

Unfortunately no one wins, when racist attitudes are expressed, that's the whole point.

And weirdly enough, spammers have figured out how to attach comments onto blogs. And I'm not techie enough to figure out how to stop it. I will contact blogger but I may have to shut down commenting - which I am loave to do as I do enjoy a nice debate - if blogger has no solution for me and this continues at a regular pace.

Thu Aug 11, 02:47:00 PM PDT  
Anonymous bacci40 said...

"Unfortunately no one wins, when racist attitudes are expressed, that's the whole point."

no, the constitution wins...and when those words and thoughts are silenced, the constition and the american people lose.

Thu Aug 11, 03:53:00 PM PDT  
Blogger obsessivegiantscompulsive said...

OK, I guess you want to bring the constitution into this now?

That's funny, from what I remember, one of the key concepts of the Declaration of Independence is that "all people are created equal". I don't see how racist remarks fits in with that concept that led into the creation of our Constitution.

But I will grant you that the Constitution "wins" as you put it when racist remarks are expressed. However, that still doesn't negate what I said: no one, meaning people, wins when racist attitudes are expressed.

What the Constitution allows is open opposition to the government and its precepts without retribution, that is, Free Speech, right?

But I did not say that I was not allowing racist attitudes, I was just saying that when they are expressed, no one wins. And I still believe that. Even the racist loses because society operates a whole lot more efficiently and productively when everyone is contributing, not when one party or another is held down by racist attitudes. There may be a racist here and there that might benefits, if you want to be technical and anal, but on the whole, everyone loses.

But all along you have been saying that Alou should have kept his mouth shut, that if he didn't speak, it would have been a non-issue and it would have quietly gone away. True enough, if the victims of racist remarks stay quieted by the fear of retribution, then yeah, there would have been a whole lot of non-issue there in the 50's and 60's.

Now you appear to be arguing that Alou has the right to say all that he has said. He has the constitutional right to speak his mind and say what his heart feels, and if he thinks that Krueger is the messenger of Satan, well, by golly, he has the right to say it, the Constitution wins.

So I'm confused by what you believe, do you believe the Constitution wins when anyone is allowed to express any thoughts and feelings they have or not? Because you can't have it both ways, if Krueger is allowed to speak in such a way, then Alou is allowed as well.

Thu Aug 11, 04:48:00 PM PDT  
Anonymous bacci40 said...

alou was not upset by the word caribean, as much as he says he was or as much as you would like him to be (and no, im not a mind reader, but let me show you the proof)

this week, hof bob feller stated "caribeans dont know the rules of the game"....this was said after the krug incident.
alou has yet to comment on this statement.

now wait a sec...didnt alou state that this was a "social issue", and that he had to educate the masses about racism?

could it be possible that since alou knows feller, he also knows that he isnt a racist, or a messenger of satan, and just a sad old man of 87?

could it also be possible that alou is more angry at the "cream of wheat" statement (that he has aluded to more than once) which wasnt a slight or an attack at all.

his silence re the words of bob feller speaks volumns.

i opine that krug, agnew and tims terminations had little or nothing to do with alledged racism, but more to do with an org attempting to stifle any and all criticism at their incompetance. furthermore, i opine that knbr is now nothing more than a 24hr infomercial for the product called the giants.

i believe that alou sat on national television and lied about not wanting krug terminated, i believe he lied when hired by the giants, when he said he was not bothered by criticsm of his managerial skills, and with his following statement;
"God does not allow anyone to make fun of his children or laugh at his children. God won't tolerate that," Alou said. "It's ridiculous that all of this was brought about by those guys. I didn't start this. He did. Anybody who wants to repent after making a statement like that has to understand that payback is going to come sooner or later."

i believe that alou has shown himself to be a petty, angry, old man, who is one bad season away from the looney bin.

you keep fighting the good fight, but i think that this was never the fight you thought it was

Fri Aug 12, 01:44:00 AM PDT  
Anonymous bacci40 said...

let me show you how this debacle has gotten out of hand, and how krug may never get another job in broadcasting

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/baseball/orl-spt-diazcolumn081205,0,7992217.column?coll=orl-sports-headlines-baseball

http://www.delmarvanow.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050812/SPORTS/508120320/1006

this is where it gets ugly

Fri Aug 12, 09:56:00 AM PDT  
Blogger obsessivegiantscompulsive said...

You're entitled to what you want to think.

The phrase was racist, plain and simple. Krug knew it, Alou knew it, everyone knows it.

You circle round trying to find all sorts of stuff to defend your end but fail at every try, or at least haven't responded to many of my statements in reponse to you.

If Feller actually said that, yes, that would be a racist statement as well. I haven't seen this in any of the media outlets I've been following along on this. I will take your word on this.

But you seem to think that Alou, or anyone affected by racism has an either/or option: either you attack every racist statement or you are not allowed to attack any racist statement. That's not a very mature attitude if that is so.

Life doesn't work that way. We all have other jobs. Alou is the manager of the Giants, that's his main job. If he was a public figure like MLKJr was or Jesse Jackson today, then maybe he would go chasing after more than one racist statement being made.

His silence does speak volumes: about how intelligent he is. There isn't enough time in the day to go chasing after all of them. You have to pick and chose your battles. Unfortunately for Krug (there goes that word again), he had the uneviable position of being the first messenger of racist and ageism statements directly at Alou.

And Alou has tried to educate the masses using Krug's utterance. However, beating people over the head with the message deadens the message, people start to tune you out. So Alou, and others, don't beat the drums constantly or people will burn out, he would burn out.

He was probably just as angry about the ageist "cream of wheat" statement as well. Who ever said he wasn't? He has been complaining since he was hired by the Giants about all the cracks about his age, I don't know where you got that he wasn't angry about that as well. However, ageism isn't big news to the media, racism is, and they are going to focus on that. And I didn't chose that battle either, I also focused on the racism as it directly affects me and my family and friends, though perhaps I should since I'll be there soon enough. In addition, people don't die because of ageist thoughts, but they do of racist thoughts.

I don't recall him saying that he was not bothered by criticism of his managerial skills, I recall him complaining about people using old age as a reason not to hire him, about people saying how old age was making Alou slip, about people saying how Alou was not up to managing the Giants because of his age.

And really, even if the motivations of Alou is not purely about racism and is also about the ageism or about attacks on his managerial skills, the fight I've been fighting is the same message I've been deliverying in my discussion with you.

Krug said a racist statement. He admits it, everyone admits it. And racism hurts all society.

I think one week suspension was ridiculous. Interestingly, some of the Giants players agreed (Eyre openly said Krug should have been fired immediately) and some of them didn't (surprisingly, Deivi Cruz was one who didn't and he is Dominican too).

Whether it was accidental or not (and it appears not), impression counts in this society, sad but true. Krug made a racist statement and got an easy punishment. That would embolden actual racists into thinking that they can get away with it too. I never said he should be fired, but one week is, as Alou phrased it, "a slap on the hand." One reporter said basically the same thing and suggested a month. If I had to be pinned on what was appropriate, 2 weeks was the minimum but probably still inadequate, 3 weeks better and the minimum, 4 weeks/1 month probably the maximum.

I don't see the lie in the statement you quoted. Alou didn't start it, Krug did by saying it, even if it was unintentional. Everything else he said was just his opinion, which he has the right to say.

Just to be clear, I do think that Alou did escalate it, no question about that. But as you pointed out, that was his constitutional right to do that, just as Krug had the right to say what he said on the air. I never said that Alou didn't escalate it, I just didn't see the point of it until now when I finally got that this is one thing that really bothers you.

And I never said that Krug deserved to be fired, I've said that on more than one occassion. However, again to quote you, it's "an ugly world." Life is unfair sometimes, good people are harmed, bad people get away with light or no sentences.

You just feel sad that Krug was fired and you are taking it out on Alou, when you should be focusing on the KNBR management for this. They took the easy way out and make Krug and the other two sacrificial lambs (though playing those clips on Dana Carvey's Church Lady and South Park to mock Alou was pretty insensitive given the situation, that was a pretty stupid move).

Again, the victim of racism is blamed, blamed for being thin-skinned, blamed for not being the "bigger" man, blamed for not letting the racist statement go.

The good fight, as you put it, has been racist attitudes for me from the start, hence my title for my first post on this: "There is no room for racism in baseball". I think I've been pretty clear about that and I still think that is a big issue, despite the firing, because the firing was an amputation to kill the bad publicity and further harm to their FCC licence, not because of racism.

But I don't seem to be getting through to you on that, you are just sad that Krug is gone and it don't matter to you that racist statements hurt people because Krug is gone.

But it's funny you say "you keep fighting the good fight, but i think that this was never the fight you thought it was." As I've noted, my fight has been the same, but I could have said your statement to you, as you brought up many items to complain about, including talking Bernie Ward and about how the Constitution wins, far afield from what the topic was, so perhaps it was you who keep fighting the good fight, only it was never the fight you thought it was.

I think it would be better if we both dropped it, but if you want to continue making points that take away from my core message about racism or don't make sense, like your argument about the Constitution, then I will respond.

If this is it, hope you have a nice weekend.

And I haven't said this in a while: Go Giants!

Fri Aug 12, 11:19:00 AM PDT  

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